The Episiarch gives you his usual great supporters views

Last updated : 17 December 2003 By Dov
Wednesday, December 17
Treading boardshack.jpg
It’s been a fairly quiet fortnight again in the life of Livingston FC, with only a semi-final draw and two league games to keep us sane. In the greater world of football, Scotland found themselves drawn in a potentially tricky, but far from impossible, World Cup qualifying group. And once again, we’re left with only one team in Europe past Christmas following the unfortunate capitulation of two of our three representatives (although according to one, actually serious, thread on a Rangers message board, their defeat was a grand plan to ensure that their squad was saved for winning the league – I mean, really; clearly nobody thought to inform Dunfermline of this).

Similarly, not too much has been happening on the boards. There were a few briefly topical issues, but few things of any genuine depth. The one exception to this was the ongoing debate regards supporters clubs, which I’ve chosen to devote a fair bit of print to in the middle. Apologies to those who have had enough – unless there are any truly groundbreaking developments, this is probably the last Board Talk that it’ll see mention in, as it’s starting to give me headaches keeping track of it all. And so…



We’ll kick off with the CIS Cup draw. It’s Dundee in the semi-final, in case anybody has been sharing a box with David Blaine (or has been reading the Sun/Daily Record, or watching STV/BBC Glasgow/Sky Sports).

Charles Darwin Esq was first off the mark, with a quick prediction:


“Was there ever a better chance of reaching the final?

PUNDY LIVI!” Forgetting the recent 1-1 farce we had to endure, clearly…although it could have been worse (both the cup draw and the recent draw draw).

Am I alone for being absolutely shocked that we avoided The Great Unwashed? Aren’t these things taken care of (asks some blazered old duffer at the SFA)? The venue also becomes a bit of a talking point, although most seem to agree that Hampden is a poor choice.

Agent Wild:
“Probably the best draw we could have asked for, Dundee in the Semi final.

That means it is probably going to be at Hampden too???????

COME ON LIVI”

Charles Darwin Esq (again): “Given a realistic number of travelling fans from both teams, I would say Perth would be the best venue. I cannot see more than 10,000 in attendance.

Or possibly even Tynecastle or Easter Road? Tannadice would be too favourable to Dundee.”

Wulsonforlivi: “It would make sense to play the game in the East of the country - Tynecastle would be my bet.

Let's not get carried away, and jump the gun, we've got to beat Dundee who will be equally fired up and DESPERATE for the cash . . but as someone else said this is a great chance to make the final!!!

If we make the final we all need to get as many friends and relatives to come along as possible to lend support. It will surely encourage the biggest Livi support yet seen, complete with as many flags and banners (and golden showers!!) [it’s so childish, but I can’t help but suppress a smutty smile whenever I see that] as possible.

This is really exciting - is this what Marv meant by God telling him there are big things on the way for Livi this season? He mentioned a third place league finish too!”

Littlemermaid: “Why go to Hampden when there will be 10,000 max there?

Why even go to Easter Rd or Tynecastle when there is NO CHANCE of filling either ground?

SFL please take the game to Perth. Almost guaranteed a sell out and would make for a great atmosphere.

45 Minutes up the road from the Bridge for us and 20 minutes down the road for Dundee supporters. It's the most logical place.” Agreed, although I often think that McDiarmid Park is one of the quietest in the land due to the gaps between the stands and relative distance from the pitch. A novel suggestion next, from the object of Pet(ta)rol’s affections…

Deasel (most Livi fans want to be him): “We've earned our right to play in the semi-finals of this competition wherever the sponsors want us to play. On the moon at three in the morning'll do most of us.” I’ll bet the LLSC would still try and run a bus. Better yet, it’d be fully booked within 8 minutes.

Lord Swinton:
“I can’t see many people travelling to the moon, especially for a mid-week game. A lot of our supporters are young children and have school the next day.”

Dark and Dangerous: “Well, it has no atmosphere.” Sir, your hat, your coat…

In the end though, the powers-that-be elect for Easter Road. Which I suppose is fair, because it’s equally as inconvenient for both sets of fans; Livi fans have to cross the city and Dundee fans have to go the extra miles to Edinburgh instead of Perth. Bravo. But it’ll be better than rattling around an empty Hampden, that’s for sure.




Glasgow make their visit to Old Almondvale next. As ever, the majority of people are egging the team on to get stuck in. I dare somebody to suggest “let’s sit with 10 men behind the ball and try to last 90 minutes” next time.

Baldfrog:
“With the odd exception, we usually give them a decent game.

We are on a high after last night, they play on Thurs night and then early on Sat (why did they ever agree to that?)

Lets have a real go on Sat - why not?”

ANDYG1 trys to out-think Martin O’Neill in a complex game of bluff and double-bluff: “Celtic may put out a fairly strong team against Partick on Thursday. They gave the 'tic a bit of a fright by going ahead last week and O'Neill will want to be certain of getting through to the semis of the cup. On the other hand, he may want to rest some of his top players before the Lyons game in the Champions league, so we may get a second string, given the 5 point lead over the'gers.” He loses.

Some claims of loan-induced conspiracy from Lionheart, though:


“David Fernandez picks up an injury and is definitely out for Saturdays game against...... who is it again?” Glasgow. Not sure which one. They’re two sides of the same coin, really.

As we all know, a “creditable” 2-0 defeat was the final score – something we were congratulated on by a hoops-supporting colleague of mine, with the claim of “we’re one of the top 20 sides in Europe and we’re averaging four goals a game – you did really well”. Gee, thanks.

Spike gives a more realistic match report:
“Celtic, inspired by Hugh Dallas in the midfield won 2-0.

Good points of the game...Pasquinelli giving Balde and Macnamara a bit of treatment (and revenge, old school). Camacho beating Balde in the air brought a few guffaws. The back three and wing backs (mostly jamie Mac) were solid enough.

Low points. Burton O'brien being outpaced by neil lennon. Burton O'Brien being outskilled by neil Lennon. Burton O'briens passing. Burton O'briens dribbling. Other than that Burton O'Brien was allright.

The midfield was honking. Lovell was pants, and Quino, whilst full of graft was not much better. So-o-o-o slo-o-o-o-ow the pair of 'em.

We missed Makel's passing and Kerr's speed and engine. Shut up Hack and Durbin.

Fernandez wasn't too badly missed as Fernando (I refuse to call him Joe, or Hernan) really enjoyed mixing it up.

Good to see Camacho come on and be alright, and JP come on and be his usual absolute shower of faeces.

Hugh Dallas certainly enjoys a spot of onanism.”

FiNbAr: “Not a bad performance really. Certainly not compared to the humbling we received at parkhead.

I thought Dorado and Quino were excellent, with Lilley, Pasquinelli, Rubio, McAllister and MacKenzie also playing well. Lovell was pretty ineffectual - constantly looking for more time on the ball than he was ever going to get, and that made it hard for the other midfielders - O'Brien in particular. Marv was very quiet.

As for MacNamee, I really don't know why we persist in calling him a defender. He's got pace and can cross a ball, but he's absolutely rank rotten in defence, especially when playing against quality opposition. I say we either play him purely as an attacking winger or we don't play him at all.

McGovern, as you say, was crap. I've watched him smugly play keepy-uppy using only his shins, and do a very fine job of it, but perhaps if he'd spent as much time and effort practising how to play football instead he might get somewhere. There's definitely a lot of talent there, but he's either too big-headed, too lazy, or too lacking in experience to use it in a productive way.

All in all, it was an alright game. I certainly got more excitement out of that 0-2 defeat than the piece-du-merde that was the draw against Dundee.” Amen to that.

The game aside, the visit of Glasgow brings its own perennial problems.

Spiggle:
“It happened again in the South stand at the weekend.

There was a Celtic fan in the South Stand not far from where i sit.

He was Singing along with the Celtic fans, swearing and cheering on his team.

At least 2 complaints were made to the stewards about this guy who told the guy that they knew he was a Celtic fan and to shut up which he never did.

This guy was in a season ticket holders seat and when i approached a steward, i was told that they were aware of the guy.

Does this not completely contradict the letter that Dominic Keane sent out to all season ticket holders.

If i remember right, the letter tells us that an Opposition fan with a Season Ticket cheering on their team and making a nuisance would be removed from the Stadium and the Season Ticket withdrawn from the person who gave them it.”

Lionise: “This whole area smacks of hypocrisy from Livi - we talk a good game when it comes to intolerance to inappropriate behaviour - however when the money comes calling obviously the board close their ears and eyes.

The "foul and abusive language will not be tolerated and you will be ejected from the stadium" statement is a joke.

Either that or several hundred/thousand people shouting about fen**** ba&$£"ds [or the other, presumably] doesn't apply - a special exemption probably.

They should save the tannoy guys breath cos it is a joke.”

AndyF: “Yesterday at the Celtic Game I could not park in Car Park 2 despite the fact that I have paid for the pass at the beginning of the season.

Now I thought maybe just ,maybe the commercial department might have sold too many passes to Livi fans. This I could have understood, but there were cars in Car Park two with NO PASSES.

I dont think it takes a genius to guess that the clan from parkhead took up the whole car park otherwise the stewards are not doing their jobs.

Whilst I am on a rant, on walking to the stadium I saw at LEAST two tic fans touting one on the boulevard Road and one right beside the statue. Actually the fan beside the statue had at least 6 tickets in his hand. He was in full view of both the stewards and police. yet nothing was done...why?

I hope this hasnt come over to strong Kay as I know your job is hard enough, but I had to ask.

Ill get off mee box.”

This comes up time and time again. I actually know of one couple who won’t attend games involving Glasgow because of these issues – it’s simply not worth the hassle and annoyance, never mind the aggressive sectarian abuse we’re all subjected to if Livi get a result, or the taunting sectarian abuse we’re all subjected to if Livi get beaten. The club, who clearly will do anything for money (Your Name Here Stadium/what colour would you like our strip to be again?), will always turn a blind eye when they’re in town. Moves to appoint a Supporters Liaison aside, I really don’t see this fundamental money-making principal changing in the near or even medium term. We either need to learn to put up, or vote with our feet and not attend the Glasgow matches if it annoys us that much. “I’ll get off mee box.”



The next issue to be tackled is the ongoing “debate” about the Official Supporters Club. This one has been rumbling on for a while, and shows little sign of dying a graceful death. And rumbling is the word – with those involved not content with having a discussion thread on the matter, it’s being played out over several (often unrelated) threads. As such, I’ve probably missed some of the last fortnight’s shenanigans on this matter (although I’ve tried to capture the general thrust of it all). Similarly to last time (or any time), if anybody feels misrepresented or unfairly quoted they can get in touch with me via the boards or PMs.

So, following on from the last episode (see Board Talk 23)…

Mid_Calder_Lion:
“The OSC isn't officially a part of LFC so my objective is to let as many people as possible know that and to give reasons why they shouldn't be e.g. ignoring a democratic vote (also known as corruption). Just like Tony Blair calls an election and says they won't be counting the ones that vote for the Tories because that doesn't suit the Labour Party.” I wouldn’t laugh, that’s coming.

Goneforever: “Something that seems to have escaped your notice is that apart from junior members, every member of the OSC is an adult capable of making their own decisions, and, who have the RIGHT to make their own decisions, and that is what they have done. It is up to each individual to decide which supporter's club to belong to, and to have their own reasons for that choice [well said]. You are beginning to sound like the ringleader of the smallest gang in school desperately striving, at whatever cost, to be the ringleader of the biggest gang in school. Good luck, MCL. Part of me hopes you make it because I can see just how important it is to you to be "TOP GUY", but the much bigger part of me just wishes that you could see enough sense to stop being abusive, hostile, and unbearably arrogant about your own beliefs to fellow posters on these boards. If you have so much conviction about your own beliefs then it is only fair and right that you accept that others have the same level of conviction in their beliefs.”

Mid_Calder_Lion: “Any you keep missing my point (maybe you want to ?) - I wouldn't care what goes on if the supporters club was called something different. As long as it's got official in the title then people think it's officially part of LFC (which it's not) and what they do affects LFC. As most of the things they do are negative and bad publicity for LFC I think the name should be changed.” Okay, I think we get your point now. I note that your petition on the matter is garnering a few signatories. I would suggest that it’ll be absolutely worthless if you don’t get enough actual OSC members to agree, though – your whole point is that they’re not officially related to Livingston FC or any other organisation, so you’ll never be able to exert enough external pressure to effect change (i.e even with 10,000 signatures, LFC et al would still be powerless). Perhaps you should join, and try to change them from within?

Karl Marx:
“I have read these boards for sometime and am well aware of the animosity some Livi supporters have about the way the OSC operate, but as a non member of any of the supporters clubs this infighting makes all of them look like a bunch of sad small minded individuals. Our support is small enough this sort of nonsense does not help, if the OSC is that bad, supporters will vote with their feet and stop using them, problem solved.” Indeed. I’m quite a big fan of this approach. Ironically, given the poster, “market forces” are often the best way to naturally achieve results. People will spend their time and money where they feel it is put to best use. If the OSC are complete dumplings, they will be out of business quite quickly.

Loosepuss: “That is what happened to me, apart from the first few months when I received a newsletter, then nothing until it was time to renew my membership. Didn't receive any notifications of meetings or outings (I don't think my dad did either)

Needless to say I did not renew.

Can I just say as well that when I first heard of the Official Supporters Club I did actually think it was run by LFC and was actually quite disappointed by the administration of the supporters club.” Ditto for me. Although my dad was never a member.

The argument, however spilled over to a new battleground, starting with this post.


Tam1314: “l have decided that lm not going to get drawn into anymore verbal arguments with MCL.

After having talked to a few people recently, and how this site is getting perceived by others l have decided that lm not going to be involved in bringing this site down. Andy and Dave have a great site here

From now on l will be restricting my views to matters of Livingston F.C.”

MAMS: “Tam, you can obviously see how something as simple as a discussion (even if it can get a little heated at times) on a subject like this can reflect on the site as a whole.

I therefore cannot understand how you can say that you cannot see how anything done by the OSC reflects on Livingston Football Club and especially when the word 'Official' is used in their title.

I have said it before and will say it again. I have no problems with the OSC, they can do what they like when they like. I do however have problems when their actions have a negative effect on the Club that I so dearly Love.

I DO NOT wish the OSC to fold, I would dearly love the OSC to have 1,000, 2,000 even 3,000 members as that would mean more people supporting Livi, I just think that the OSC should rename to something which has less of a negative effect on LFC should anything go wrong (remember Goneforevers quote that every organisation has "Flaws and Imperfections").

Plug: “To be honest, I think this topic is getting very boring!

I'm not saying that some very valid points and retorts have not been aired in places, just that if everyone involved cannot see the harm it is doing, not only to this site but also to LFC Suporters Clubs, then maybe they should take a step back and have a look at the wider picture. It certainly can't be encouraging anyone to get involved with supporting the team when it looks like what little support we have is bittching and name calling with each other.

MCL's petition on the unlieshed board is ample for him to find out at this time if people are in agreement with his opinions.

Tam's realised that he was getting nowhere with trying to stand his ground.

It's time to give the public discord a rest.”

Not so sure that it is – rather I think it’s time to try and find some kind of resolution. Saving it for another time, or letting it drop will just mean that it comes back again, and again, and again (surfacing where you least expect it e.g. threads on players or away games – I would suggest that’s worse for the impression of the site than having it out where everyone can see it and choose to ignore it). Ordinarily, the petition would be good to gauge support – as I said earlier, however, irrespective of whether there are 10 or 10,000 signatures on it will make little difference. What is really required is for somebody from the OSC to properly join the debate. Editors note - as members we've tried - but all we get is abuse, therefore, no more trying :o(
)

A final point, not on the debate, but on the conduct of those involved. From Orco’s thread complaining about the price of away games we were treated to a good 20-odd posts about the OSC. Orco puts his point thus:

“Gonnae start yir ain threads and stoap hijackin other folk's!”



I feel that this debate is well worth having, if people can refrain from personal attacks and ambushing each other all over the place. If you must have this out, perhaps a single thread on the Unleished Board, allowing everyone to get their views across and debated more openly and coherently, might be in order?



So, animosities aside it’s back to the “football”, and the debacle that was our trip to Tannadice, featuring a tame 2-0 defeat. Again.

LLD:
“I thought we did OK for the first twenty minutes or so but afterwards we were very poor indeed. We lacked imagination, and were fairly slack with our passing all over the park.

United were pretty rank too, which makes the final result all the more disappointing. Dodds' ability to finish was the difference.

There were a number of players well off form for us today, and Hay et al will need to get them sorted out for next week, cos I can't see us beating Killie on the form shown today.

I was particularly disappointed with the efforts of Lovell, McNamee and (although it pains me to say it) Quino. If we had any real competition for places none of the above would be in the team next weekend.

Pasq tried but he's lacking quality. McGovern did nothing when he came on, and my current feeling is that he just isn't good enough for the level we are playing at.

I'll be interested to discover if Lee Makel has picked up a knock, because he was the pick of the midfielders today (not saying much) and should have stayed on the full ninety minutes.

Overall, it was very much a case of us harking back to last season, and that says it all.”

Orco: “I'm just back [good for you]. In the first half Dundee [United] defended fairly well and Livi had most of the play. They scored out of the blue from a free kick won by the serial diving Robson. However in spite of the amount of possession Livi never looked like scoring. Apart from a shot across the face of the goal by Lovell and a similar one from McAllister most of what they did consisted of very pretty triangular passing. It was very frustrating stuff to watch. The game was crying out for some meaningful runs towards the bye line or penalty box.

In the second half United looked much more confident and obviously had sussed Livi's weaknesses.

I can't understand why there wasn't a spare striker on the bench. Lilley looked knackered towards the end. I suppose it wasn't our day. The scoreline flattered United but in Billy Dodds they had a guy who will score with the slightest sniff at goal.
Must do better next week!”

And of course, the obligatory Davie Hay comment…

Wulsonforlivi:
“Is David Hay getting found out now? It sounds like Livi were just not at the game today - lack of drive, lack of desire, lack of ideas.

Have we gone back to the type of game we played last season? I would much rather we lost games while playing good attacking football, rather than just letting poor teams roll over us!!

We're only 4 points ahead of Aberdeen (in 11th) now, and teams around us are starting to get their games together - Killie, Aberdeen, Hibs, Dundee United. We had better start doing the same or we're going to get nothing out of the next few games, including the semi!”

Arkaig? No affirmative response? Maybe next time!



And so, the end is nigh. Quite a few things missed due to, once again, length concerns. Saddam Hussein was captured (in Dundee, suddenly homeless), prompting various suggestions of punishment (the most football orientated one was giving him a season ticket at Ibrox - oh how we laughed Angus_w). Should the U21 league be scrapped asked some (possible said a few), Scotland are going to win their World Cup Group at a canter, Glasgow went out of Europe (sad for the coefficient, yet strangely amusing to see their egos crumble), we forgot we have no manager, Sandy Clarke is the rear end of a horse, the purple strip is to blame for all our ills (except financial ones, I would suggest) the Livi scouts need shot (or not, as the case may be), football is too expensive, and Jonny Wilkinson seemingly has a personality worthy of award. I beg to differ. Until next time…

Yours in Livi,

The Episiarch